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Doddy_Prayogo



Joined: 03 Feb 2011
Posts: 164
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Fri, 18-03-2011 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Setelah saya searching lagi, ternyata banyak sekali artikel [dari Protestan] yang menyatakan bahwa Paul Yohanes Paulus II masuk ke neraka. Saya lampirkan beberapa, mohon tanggapan atau apologetika dari mod. Thx

From : Rev. Angus Stewart, "Is Pope John Paul II in Heaven?"

    While many “well-meaning people” reckon that the pope is in Heaven and the Roman Church thinks that he is in purgatory, the biblical Christian realizes that he is in Hell. Below I will give two simple reasons for this conclusion: his preaching another gospel and his idolatry.

    (1) The deceased pope denied justification by faith alone in Christ alone, which is called by God “the truth of the gospel” (Gal. 2:5, 14). John Paul II lived “in bondage” (4:9; 5:1) and under God’s “curse” (3:10), for he did not obey “the truth” (3:1; 4:16; 5:7) being “bewitched” by Satan and sin (3:1). God is not mocked: every one who “perverts the gospel of Christ” (1:7) “shall bear his punishment, whosoever he be,” including the pope (5:10). The apostle Paul proclaims, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” (1:8). Then the apostle repeats the solemn word: “As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (1:9).

    If apostles or angels are accursed if they preach another gospel, how will the pope escape? As the leader of over 1 billion Roman Catholics, John Paul II preached the false gospel of salvation by faith and works on all continents leading millions upon millions of people to Hell. He even presided as the head of a church which officially damned the gospel of Christ and all who believe that gospel, for the Council of Trent with all its anathemas (1545-1563) was affirmed at Vatican II (1962-1965).

    (2) Think too of all his idolatries as the pontiff of the false church of Rome. John Paul II is a life-long worshipper of the wafer in the mass, and he adores and kisses religious pictures, idols, crucifixes etc. He dedicated himself and his whole pontificate to the Virgin Mary and has sought to promote Mariolatry all around the world. He made no secret that his personal motto is totus tuus sum Maria (Mary, I’m all yours). Then there are his blasphemous claims to be the head of the church and the vicar of Christ on earth. God’s Word—the standard of His judgment (John 12:48)—is very clear. “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither fornicators, nor idolaters ... shall inherit the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 6:9-10). Outside the heavenly city are “idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie,” for “idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Rev. 22:15; 21:8).

    But there is mercy with God for all Hell-deserving sinners like us who turn from the “dung” of their own self-righteousnesses (Phil. 3:8; Isa. 64:6) to God’s perfect righteousness in Christ alone!



ckckckck.... *geleng-geleng-kepala*
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vincent11ab



Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 1217
Location: /HDA1

PostPosted: Fri, 18-03-2011 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Self Proclaim! sampe bawa bawa Michael Jackson, parah ini lebih lucu dari kesaksiannya itu sendiri Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak

nah ini loh yang buat gak balance, sekedar kesaksian kecil aja seolah olah parah banget. giliran kesaksian Versi Katolik?

btw temen saya banyak juga yang percaya... heran.
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Charity



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 791

PostPosted: Fri, 18-03-2011 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doddy_Prayogo wrote:
Ketika saya membaca kesaksian Angelica, saya mencoba mencari kutipan Paus Yohanes Paulus II mengenai surga dan neraka itu nyata. Tiba2 saya menemukan website ini :

HEAVEN, HELL AND PURGATORY : Pope John Paul II

Kelihatannya kesaksian Angelica mengutip bbrp poin di sini :

In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

"Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

...

Heaven as the fullness of communion with God was the theme of the Holy Father's catechesis at the General Audience of 21 July 1999. Heaven "is neither an abstraction not a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit," the Pope said.

...

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, "this perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed is called "heaven'. Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfilment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness" (n.1024).

...

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that "hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself... Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".


Bolehkan saya minta tanggapan dari teman2 sekalian mengenai poin-poin dari statement di atas, terutama dari mod. Apakah statement dari Angelica bisa dikatakan sesuai dengan yang dikatakan paus sendiri? [atau ada beberapa kata yang dipelintir?]
Thx.
Gbu


KALAU memang Angelica mengambil apa-apa dari artikel tersebut, tentu saja kesalahan yang lebih fatal akan tampak, karena disana tidak dikatakan bahwa Alm.Pope John Paul II menganggap / mengajarkan / berkata bahwa tidak ada surga dan neraka.

"heaven" sangat sangat jauh melampaui kondisi dan hakikat yang bisa dipahami, dijelaskan dan di definisikan sebagai "a place" secara apa yang bisa dipahami oleh manusia, sehingga tak ada satupun bahasa atau pemahaman manusia yang bisa menjelaskan apa dan bagaimana "heaven" itu dengan jelas dan sempurna.

Quote:
In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him.

dan ini dijelaskan dengan sangat baik oleh pemahaman Santo Paulus dari Tarsus tentang surga dalam suratnya kepada jemaat di Korintus.

Indonesia Katolik -Terjemahan Baru   © Ekaristi dot Org
1 Korintus  2:9Tetapi seperti ada tertulis: "Apa yang tidak pernah dilihat oleh mata, dan tidak pernah didengar oleh telinga, dan yang tidak pernah timbul di dalam hati manusia: semua yang disediakan Allah untuk mereka yang mengasihi Dia."


CMIIW.

Quote:
The deceased pope denied justification by faith alone in Christ alone, which is called by God “the truth of the gospel” (Gal. 2:5, 14).


JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE adalah ajaran BIDAT Protestan. Tidak ada satupun ayat di Alkitab mengajarkan bahwa manusia dibenarkan hanya karena iman SAJA.
Justru mereka yang mengajarkan JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE lah yang akan terkutuk dalam api kekal.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE


Quote:
(2) Think too of all his idolatries as the pontiff of the false church of Rome. John Paul II is a life-long worshipper of the wafer in the mass, and he adores and kisses religious pictures, idols, crucifixes etc. He dedicated himself and his whole pontificate to the Virgin Mary and has sought to promote Mariolatry all around the world. He made no secret that his personal motto is totus tuus sum Maria (Mary, I’m all yours). Then there are his blasphemous claims to be the head of the church and the vicar of Christ on earth.


diatas itu adalah tuduhan klasik dan palsu dari para bidat yang sudah berkali-kali dibahas dalam topik-topik lain di forum ini.
sudah banyak dijelaskan dalam forum ini, dan banyak topik apologetik yang telah membahas tuduhan tuduhan dalam artikel tersebut :

Tentang Maria

patung dan Image kudus

Primat Paus

dan lain sebagainya.

Selain itu kesaksian angelica berbau Teologi Rapture yang sesat, apologinya bisa di baca di sini.


CMIIW

Tuhan memberkati.
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teach me to love, to forgive and humble me, my Lord !


Last edited by Charity on Fri, 18-03-2011 2:17 am; edited 6 times in total
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m2us



Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 1552
Location: Roman Catholic Church

PostPosted: Fri, 18-03-2011 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

While many “well-meaning people” reckon that the pope is in Heaven and the Roman Church thinks that he is in purgatory, the biblical Christian realizes that he is in Hell. Below I will give two simple reasons for this conclusion: his preaching another gospel and his idolatry.


Biblical Christian yang mana? If it is the real Christian Bible which is Catholic Bible, offcourse it denies justification by faith alone, so in this case Rev. Angus Stewart is eligible to go to Hell because he is preaching another gospel.

rgds,
m2us
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Doddy_Prayogo



Joined: 03 Feb 2011
Posts: 164
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Fri, 18-03-2011 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thx Charity n Mu2s,

Charity wrote:
KALAU memang Angelica mengambil apa-apa dari artikel tersebut, tentu saja kesalahan yang lebih fatal akan tampak, karena disana tidak dikatakan bahwa Alm.Pope John Paul II menganggap / mengajarkan / berkata bahwa tidak ada surga dan neraka.


Sori Charity, rupanya pola pikir saya rupanya terbawa dengan artikel2 yg saya dapatkan di internet. Saya pikir tadi Angelica mengatakan bahwa surga dan neraka menurut Paus bukanlah suatu tempat. Ternyata setelah saya baca Angelica mengatakan bahwa Paus tidak mengakui kalau surga dan neraka tidak nyata. Thx, karena sudah mengingatkan.

Thx buat topik2 yang sudah diajukan, Charity.

Saya berasumsi bahwa dia pernah tau / membaca / mendengar mengenai ajaran mengenai Paus Yohanes Paulus II yang masuk neraka, karena hampir keseluruhan bagian dari kesaksiannya sudah pernah diajarkan oleh Evangelis2 Protestan dan sudah masuk dalam alam bawah sadar. Sehingga mimpinya dia bisa memunculkan hal tersebut. Hal yg sama berlaku juga di Michael Jackson. (saya yakin apabila dia tidak pernah kenal Paus Yohanes Paulus II maupun Michael Jackson, mungkin saja dalam kesaksiannya tidak ada nama mereka berdua.)

Saya juga tertarik utk belajar berapologetika dgn memakai bahan kesaksian Angelica. Sekalian juga nanti bisa saya gunakan utk membantu temen2 saya yang khawatir ketika menerima berita ini. Saya coba kerjakan hari ini dan saya posting, mohon teman2 koreksi ya.

Gbu
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"In a world where there is so much noise, so much bewilderment, there is a need for silent adoration of Jesus concealed in the Host."

http://doddyprayogo.wordpress.com
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Doddy_Prayogo



Joined: 03 Feb 2011
Posts: 164
Location: Taiwan

PostPosted: Fri, 18-03-2011 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He made no secret that his personal motto is totus tuus sum Maria (Mary, I’m all yours)


Oh ya, bagaimana dengan ini? Tentu kalau kita bilang ke pihak Protestan bahwa itu hanya bentuk penghormatan, pasti mereka tidak akan menerima. (alasannya pasti karena hal itu sudah berlebihan, masa sampai bilang "Mary, I'm all yours", "Maria, aku seluruhnya milikmu." seolah2 seperti penyerahan diri kepada Maria)
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"In a world where there is so much noise, so much bewilderment, there is a need for silent adoration of Jesus concealed in the Host."

http://doddyprayogo.wordpress.com
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ceceps01



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 1432

PostPosted: Fri, 18-03-2011 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mereka bisa heboh dgn gosip chip 666, memang parah sekali aliran pentakostal
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Charity



Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 791

PostPosted: Fri, 18-03-2011 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doddy_Prayogo wrote:
Quote:
He made no secret that his personal motto is totus tuus sum Maria (Mary, I’m all yours)


Oh ya, bagaimana dengan ini? Tentu kalau kita bilang ke pihak Protestan bahwa itu hanya bentuk penghormatan, pasti mereka tidak akan menerima. (alasannya pasti karena hal itu sudah berlebihan, masa sampai bilang "Mary, I'm all yours", "Maria, aku seluruhnya milikmu." seolah2 seperti penyerahan diri kepada Maria)



jika seorang suami berkata kepada istrinya " Sayang, aku mencintaimu, karena itu aku sepenuhnya milikmu"
apakah salah ? apakah lalu berarti sang suami tidak mencintai ibunya lagi ? ayahnya ? bahkan Allah ? karena suami berkata ia sepenuhnya milik istrinya ?

itulah yang sering dipikirkan oleh mereka yang picik hati. Seakan-akan Maria tidak memiliki hubungan apapun dengan Yesus. Seakan-akan dengan menghormati dan mencintai Maria, maka Hormat, sembah dan cinta kita pada Yesus akan terkorupsi.

Aku akan sangat senang jika orang menghormati ibuku, mencintainya, merawatnya, atau membantunya membikin roti. Surely.

cinta bukan seperti roti, jika kita sudah memberikan separuh pada orang lain, maka separuhnya saja yang tersisa.

apalagi terhadap ibu sendiri. Apalagi terhadap Ibu yang telah mempersembahkan ketaatan sedemikian rupa untuk keselamatan kita. Maria adalah bunda Gereja, ibu kita semua.

Indonesia Katolik -Terjemahan Baru   © Ekaristi dot Org
Yohanes  19:25Dan dekat salib Yesus berdiri ibu-Nya dan saudara ibu-Nya, Maria, isteri Klopas dan Maria Magdalena.
Yohanes  19:26Ketika Yesus melihat ibu-Nya dan murid yang dikasihi-Nya di sampingnya, berkatalah Ia kepada ibu-Nya: "Ibu, inilah, anakmu!"
Yohanes  19:27Kemudian kata-Nya kepada murid-murid-Nya: "Inilah ibumu!" Dan sejak saat itu murid itu menerima dia di dalam rumahnya.


Yesus berkata pada murid-muridNya untuk menganggap Maria sebagai ibu kandung mereka sendiri. Dan Maria-pun dalam ketaatannya, menganggap kita seperti anak kandungnya sendiri.

dan melalui relasi yang sangat istimewa ini, kita senantiasa dijaga dan dilindungi, serta dipersatukan dengan Anaknya, Yesus Kristus Allah, melalui doa-doa Maria, melalui kasih sayang Maria.

segala ungkapan hormat kepada Maria, senantiasa berfokus pada tujuan manusia sejak semula seperti yang telah Allah kehendaki sejak manusia diciptakan, yaitu kerinduan untuk bersatu dengan Allah.

Yesus sangat menghormati bundaNya, dan Yesus tahu seberapa dalam pedang yang dihunjamkan ke hati Maria, untuk menggenapi kehendak Allah, melihat Putera tunggalnya disalib di depan mata kepala sendiri tanpa alasan logis yang mungkin terlihat mengada-ada, tidak rasional, konyol dll bagi semua orang. Namun dalam ketaatan dan dukacita Marialah, seluruh kehendak Allah terlaksana tanpa bercacat.

Hal-hal seperti ini tak akan pernah mampu di pahami oleh orang-orang yang picik hati.

Alm.Pope John Paul II sangat mencintai Maria. Dan itu tidak berarti bahwa Yesus disingkirkan, seperti pandangan picik dan bias protestan.

apakah jika aku berkata aku menyayangi ayahku, itu berarti aku tidak menyayangi ibuku ?
justru dengan menyayangi ayahku, aku semakin menyayangi ibuku. Karena Ibuku menginginkan aku menyayangi ayahku, dan demikian pula sebaiknya sehingga keluarga kami menjadi keluarga yang sangat berbahagia dan bersatu dalam ikatan yang tak terpatahkan.
Itulah kekeluargaan. Dan seperti itulah persekutuan orang kudus.

Dengan mencintai Maria, kita semakin mencintai Yesus dan menjadi satu dalam keluarga kerajaan Allah. Dengan menjadi milik Maria seutuhnya, kita menyerahkan diri dalam doa-doa dan kasih sayang Maria yang tentu saja semakin mengarahkan kita kepada Kristus.

Haruslah personal motto Alm.Pope John Paul II dipahami secara Katolik, secara benar dan satu-satunya yang benar. Dan bukan dalam kepicikan hati dan ketidaktulusan.

semoga membantu.
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teach me to love, to forgive and humble me, my Lord !


Last edited by Charity on Fri, 18-03-2011 9:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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April



Joined: 25 Jan 2004
Posts: 1696

PostPosted: Fri, 18-03-2011 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony wrote:
DeusVult wrote:
So aku google nama si penerima "penglihatan" in dan baca penglihatannya yang versi bahasa Inggris. Untung aku baca versi bahasa Inggris, kalau baca versi Indonesia pasti gak se-ngakak ini Ketawa Ngakak


    Take for example, Michael Jackson. This man was famous all over the world but he was a satanist. Although many people may not see it that way, but it is the truth. This man had satanic covenants: He came to agreement with the devil in order to achieve fame and attract many fans.

    Those steps that he performed, that's the way I saw demons walk while tormenting people in hell. They would slide backward and not move forward, while they shout; enjoying the anguish they impose upon the people. Let me tell you that Michael Jackson is in hell.



    Ambil contoh, Michael Jackson. Orang ini terkenal di seluruh dunia tetapi ia adalah seorang pengikut setan. Meskipun banyak orang mungkin tidak melihat seperti itu, tapi itu adalah kebenaran. Orang ini memiliki perjanjian setan: ia datang pd kesepakatan dengan iblis demi mencapai ketenaran dan menarik banyak penggemar.

    Langkah-langkah tarian yang ia dilakukan, itulah caraku melihat setan-setan berjalan sambil menyiksa orang di neraka. Mereka akan bergeser mundur dan tidak bergerak maju, sementara mereka berteriak; menikmati penderitaan yang mereka jatuhkan pada orang-orang. Biarkan aku memberitahumu bahwa Michael Jackson di neraka.


Moonwalk?

Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak

You've got to be kidding!! Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak


And just for that I shall practice my moonwalk skilz! Cool




Orang Pentekosta memang aneh-aneh.


ya giv me thriller ....... Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak

Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak


Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDYpW3zyXqQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXbfH0aAaIQ


Ciptaan Tuhan yang canggih !!
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mbedut



Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 1083
Location: Jakarta

PostPosted: Sat, 19-03-2011 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

April wrote:


Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDYpW3zyXqQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXbfH0aAaIQ


Ciptaan Tuhan yang canggih !!



Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak bisa aja, nemu aja, Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak Ketawa Ngakak
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