FAQFAQ          Username: Password: Log me on automatically each visit

Eropa kian suram    
Goto page: Next

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    printer-friendly view    Akademi Kontra Indiferentisme Forum Index -> Forum Terbuka
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tony
Evangelos


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 4581
Location: Disini, ngga kelihatan apa?

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 9:03 am    Post subject: Eropa kian suram Reply with quote

Satu lagi berita dan bukti akan kelemahan dan kembalinya EU dari liberalisme dan sosialisme kini menjadi otoriter kepada kebebasan beragama. Boneka islam yg mereka ciptakan dan gunakan untuk menghancurkan moral gereja sekarang menjadi sasaran mereka sendiri, pertanyaan bernilai sejuta adalah apakah ini temporal, kembali ke konservatif atau aksi akhir dari agenda liberal yg merasa sudah tidak memerlukan boneka islam untuk merusak moral gereja.


Swiss vote to ban construction of minarets on mosquesVote represents blow to Switzerland's political establishment Buzz up!

Ian Traynor, Europe editor guardian.co.uk, Sunday 29 November 2009 22.36 GMT Article history



One of only four minarets in Switzerland, on a Muslim centre in Wangen bei Olten, contrasts with a church tower. Photograph: Fabrice Coffrini/AFP

Switzerland became the first country in Europe todayto vote to curb the religious practices of Muslims when a referendum banning the construction of minarets on mosques was backed by a solid majority.

The surprise result, banning minarets in a country that has only four mosques with minarets and no major problems with Islamist militancy, stunned the Swiss establishment, which was bracing itself for a backlash in the Middle East.

The result looks likely to cause strife where there was relative peace, sully the country's image abroad, damage investment and trade with the Muslim world, and set back efforts to integrate a population of some 400,000 Muslims, most of whom are European Muslims – and non-mosque-goers – from the Balkans.

The campaign to ban minarets was described by the country's justice minister as a "proxy war" for drumming up conflict between ethnic Swiss and Muslim immigrants. But the ban was supported by a majority of 57.5%, 20 percentage points more than predicted in opinion polls in the run-up to the vote.

"The federal council [the body that constitutes the federal government] respects this decision," said a government statement tonight . "The construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted."

While surprising, the verdict raised the question of whether such curbs on Muslims would be replicated across Europe were voters given their say. If Switzerland is the only country in Europe to embark on such a ban, that may be because its system of plebiscitary democracy compels single-issue referendums if petitions amass enough signatures.

Across Europe, far-right parties have been scoring gains in recent years on anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant platforms.

The result represented a triumph for the far-right populist Swiss People's party, which organised the petition paving the way for the referendum. In opposition, the SPP became the strongest party in Switzerland two years ago largely by running a robust campaign, denounced as racist by the UN, against immigrants.

The result also represented an act of mass defiance of the national establishment. The government, mainstream political parties, the churches, the main newspapers, the national president, the powerful business lobby, and the Vatican all opposed the ban, but it was backed by 22 of the country's 26 cantons on a national turnout of more than 53% .

As a result, the article of the national constitution regulating relations between the state and religion will be amended to include the bald statement: "The construction of minarets is forbidden."

"The result is unworthy of Switzerland's tradition and history," said Farhad Afshar, a leading Swiss Muslim and Berne University sociologist. "Muslims are well-integrated here compared with France or Germany. This result has nothing to do with the Muslims living in Switzerland."

The SPP said the minaret ban would "be implemented to the letter" and denounced senior church figures for the "alarming role" they played in the campaign.

Opponents of the move in the government, churches and human rights organisations had argued a ban on minarets would infringe fundamental liberties and freedom of religion. Green Party leaders warned tonightthat the ban could be unconstitutional and threatened to try to overturn the verdict at the European court of human rights in Strasbourg.

Ulrich Schlüer, an SPP MP who led the ban campaign, pointed out that the Strasbourg court had recently ruled against crucifixes in classrooms in Italy.

"It now appears that Christian towns are not supposed to use Christian symbols," he said. "But we're supposed to have Muslim symbols." The SPP said that going to the European court would breach the popular sovereignty that underpins the Swiss democratic model and tradition.

It dismissed the arguments about freedom or religion, asserting that minarets were not a religious but a political symbol, and the thin end of a wedge that would bring sharia law to the country, with forced marriages, "honour" killings, female genital mutilation and oppression of women.

A handful of recent applications for building permits for minarets in Switzerland, the no campaigners said, was proof to many Swiss "of the next step in the strategy of Islamification of our country. The fear is great that the minarets will be followed by the calls to prayer of the muezzin … sharia is gaining in importance in Switzerland and in Europe. That means honour killings, forced marriages, circumcision, wearing the burka, ignoring school rules, and even stoning."

The prohibition also found substantial support on the left and among secularists worried about the status of women in Islamic cultures. Prominent feminists attacked minarets as male power symbols, deplored the oppression of Muslim women, and urged a vote for the ban.

The justice minister, Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf, a strong opponent of the ban, said the result reflected fears about Islamic fundamentalist tendencies. "The Federal Council [government] takes the view that a ban on the construction of new minarets is not a feasible means of countering extremist tendencies."

She had previously criticised the prohibition campaign as a violation of human rights and as a "proxy war" for those seeking to stir up religious friction.

Corine Mauch, the mayor of Zurich, who also opposed the ban, said the vote was "a fateful signal to the Muslim community".

Swiss business is worried that the anti-Muslim vote could have a serious impact on trade with the Arab world. More immediately, there is concern for two Swiss businessmen abducted in Libya last year after Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's son and daughter-in-law were arrested in a Geneva hotel on suspicion of mistreating their staff. The two Swiss, regarded as hostages, were handed over to the Swiss embassy in Tripoli earlier this month but have still been denied exit visas and could yet face trial.End




Europe's tense relations with Islam


Dutch films Theo van Gogh, the outspoken film-maker and polemicist, was stabbed to death in Amsterdam in 2004 by a Muslim, causing national and international outrage. Geert Wilders is riding high in Dutch politics on an anti-Muslim platform after making an incendiary film about Islamic practices, calling for the banning of the Qur'an and an end to Muslim immigration.


Danish cartoons The country was plunged into crisis with the Arab and Islamic world in 2005 after a Copenhagen newspaper published a set of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad regarded as sacrilegious and offensive to Muslims. The episode triggered intense debate over freedom of expression and its limits, and hate speech.


French burkas Nicolas Sarkozy is pushing to ban the burka, arguing this month that it breaches rigorous French adherence to public secularism. The French president's statements follow years of argument and legal disputes over the wearing of Islamic veils and headdresses in schools and public places.


German mosques A dispute has broken out over one of Europe's biggest mosques, being built in Cologne. There are similar disputes in Denmark, France, Italy, Austria and the Netherlands.
_________________
Salam dan doa
F A Q
It fails to show just how the world is divided. Evil stands for division against unity. In union with God and His miracles I see my self everyday in the mirror. I am a miracle that science still is at it's heels glancing up a vast yet unacceptable impossibility, a climb to faith. Science can't and will never explain God, for science is only capable in calculating the calculable. How is science to measure anything outside of time and space that started time and space, how is the created to measure the creator? Science is an apathy of one who seeks his heart and yet refuse to see it,
Tony B Mat 12:32 Jangan membohongi diri!
Indonesia Katolik -Terjemahan Baru   © Ekaristi dot Org
Matius  12:32Apabila seorang mengucapkan sesuatu menentang Anak Manusia, ia akan diampuni, tetapi jika ia menentang Roh Kudus, ia tidak akan diampuni, di dunia ini tidak, dan di dunia yang akan datangpun tidak.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ave Gratia



Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 913

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mata mereka baru terbuka di saat Islam meminta izin membangun menara yang Mesjid yang ke lima, dan mengenai izin menara mesjid yang ke lima ini di perdebatkan walaupun sdh terbangun empat menara menjid sebelumnya.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
paul7475
== BANNED ==




Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 1578

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony wrote:
Satu lagi berita dan bukti akan kelemahan dan kembalinya EU dari liberalisme dan sosialisme kini menjadi otoriter kepada kebebasan beragama. Boneka islam yg mereka ciptakan dan gunakan untuk menghancurkan moral gereja...

Ada kesan yang tendensius tertangkap di sini.

Adakah yang salah ketika EU memberi kebebasan beragama ? Ketika EU dengan tradisi kekristenan yang mengakar memberi kebebasan beragama dan langsung disikapi secara 'brutal' oleh Islam, apakah hal itu langsung terbaca bahwa mereka, ie. warga Eropa, menciptakan "boneka Islam untuk menghancurkan moral gereja" ?


Sekarang mari kita beranalogi dengan negara kita.

Apakah bisa kita beranalogi seperti itu ? Eropa memiliki tradisi kekristenan, sementara Indonesia praktis sudah memiliki beragam agama dalam sejarah pra-kemerdekaannya. Let us asume kalau Indonesia itu, terutama di wilayah barat yang memegang peranan penting dalam pemerintahan, memiliki akar tradisi Islam.

Menilik pandangan Anda, maka tidaklah mengherankan, sebagian kaum Islam di tanah air menganggap kebebasan beragama telah kebablasan. Mereka pun mengangkat isu kristenisasi.

Ini mirip dengan mengatakan "boneka Kristen telah diciptakan untuk menghancurkan moral Islam".


Jadi pertanyaannya: adakah yang salah dengan kebebasan beragama ?

Ataukah karena Eropa telah menggalakkan kebebasan beragama, maka seharusnya dunia Arab, teristimewa Mekah dan Medinnah, harus menerapkan kebebasan beragama ? Yah... anggap barter lah...


Bapa Suci pernah meminta kepada para pemimpin dunia Arab untuk memberi perlindungan kepada kaum kristiani di negaranya masing2. Termasuk mendirikan gereja...
_________________
"Um unser Russland zu retten, ... [w]ir bräuchten zehn Franziskus von Assisi." - Lenin, am Ende seines Leben, 1924.
"[T]o save our Russia, ... [w]e would need ten Francis of Assisi." - Lenin's last word, 1924.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony
Evangelos


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 4581
Location: Disini, ngga kelihatan apa?

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paul7475 wrote:
Tony wrote:
Satu lagi berita dan bukti akan kelemahan dan kembalinya EU dari liberalisme dan sosialisme kini menjadi otoriter kepada kebebasan beragama. Boneka islam yg mereka ciptakan dan gunakan untuk menghancurkan moral gereja...

Ada kesan yang tendensius tertangkap di sini.

Adakah yang salah ketika EU memberi kebebasan beragama ? Ketika EU dengan tradisi kekristenan yang mengakar memberi kebebasan beragama dan langsung disikapi secara 'brutal' oleh Islam, apakah hal itu langsung terbaca bahwa mereka, ie. warga Eropa, menciptakan "boneka Islam untuk menghancurkan moral gereja" ?

Bukan spekulasi, sejarah gimana lho. Islam sudah lama ditumpangi politikus eropa untuk melemahkan peran gereja dan moral gereja di eropa, halllllllllloooo ....

Quote:
Sekarang mari kita beranalogi dengan negara kita.

Apakah bisa kita beranalogi seperti itu ? Eropa memiliki tradisi kekristenan, sementara Indonesia praktis sudah memiliki beragam agama dalam sejarah pra-kemerdekaannya. Let us asume kalau Indonesia itu, terutama di wilayah barat yang memegang peranan penting dalam pemerintahan, memiliki akar tradisi Islam.

Menilik pandangan Anda, maka tidaklah mengherankan, sebagian kaum Islam di tanah air menganggap kebebasan beragama telah kebablasan. Mereka pun mengangkat isu kristenisasi.

Ini mirip dengan mengatakan "boneka Kristen telah diciptakan untuk menghancurkan moral Islam".


ngga sama, apakah kamu tau sejarah sekulerisme eropa mulai dari abad 20? Silahkan riset dan tanya sendiri sama warga eropa generasi perang dunia ke II.


Quote:
Jadi pertanyaannya: adakah yang salah dengan kebebasan beragama ?

Bukan itu yg didiskusikan, melainkan sekulrisme dan liberalisme, please try to pu ti your head inilan musuh gereja, relativisme, individualisme, liberalis dan sekulerlisme anti moral.

Quote:
Ataukah karena Eropa telah menggalakkan kebebasan beragama, maka seharusnya dunia Arab, teristimewa Mekah dan Medinnah, harus menerapkan kebebasan beragama ? Yah... anggap barter lah...

Silahkan bermimpi kapan arab akan rela demikian LOL.


Quote:
Bapa Suci pernah meminta kepada para pemimpin dunia Arab untuk memberi perlindungan kepada kaum kristiani di negaranya masing2. Termasuk mendirikan gereja...

Hahahahaha ..... dream on. Membawa Kitab Suci diluar kompleks asing di saudi saja akan ditangkap polisi agama dan dihukum, get real dude!

ARISMU tidak akan pernah bisa diajak kompromi secara sekuler lebih lagi dengan gereja, idealnya sih bisa tapi saya bukan idealis dan gerejapun bukan idealis. Ketawa Ngakak


Quote:

Ulrich Schlüer, an SPP MP who led the ban campaign, pointed out that the Strasbourg court had recently ruled against crucifixes in classrooms in Italy.

"It now appears that Christian towns are not supposed to use Christian symbols," he said. "But we're supposed to have Muslim symbols." The SPP said that going to the European court would breach the popular sovereignty that underpins the Swiss democratic model and tradition.

btw sudah baca artikelnya, gimana bisa EU menuntut hukum dalam negeri Italia seperti contoh diatas. Wake Up Europe! Wake Up Now!
_________________
Salam dan doa
F A Q
It fails to show just how the world is divided. Evil stands for division against unity. In union with God and His miracles I see my self everyday in the mirror. I am a miracle that science still is at it's heels glancing up a vast yet unacceptable impossibility, a climb to faith. Science can't and will never explain God, for science is only capable in calculating the calculable. How is science to measure anything outside of time and space that started time and space, how is the created to measure the creator? Science is an apathy of one who seeks his heart and yet refuse to see it,
Tony B Mat 12:32 Jangan membohongi diri!
Indonesia Katolik -Terjemahan Baru   © Ekaristi dot Org
Matius  12:32Apabila seorang mengucapkan sesuatu menentang Anak Manusia, ia akan diampuni, tetapi jika ia menentang Roh Kudus, ia tidak akan diampuni, di dunia ini tidak, dan di dunia yang akan datangpun tidak.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
paul7475
== BANNED ==




Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 1578

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sekedar menambahkan:

Apa yang dilakukan para pemimpin di [beberapa negara] Eropa sebenarnya mirip dengan yang dilakukan oleh [beberapa] politikus Katolik di tanah air dan juga di AS: memberi batasan2 yang jelas berupa tembok pemisah nan tinggi dan tebal antara Ajaran Gereja dan kehidupannya berpolitik.

Jadi sederhananya: urusan politik ya politik, agama ya agama. Agama tidak boleh mencampuri urusan politik. ---> tapi apakah bisa terjadi kondisi sebaliknya: kehidupan politik tidak mencampuri urusan agama ?!

Patrick Kennedy dan Arnold Schwarzenegger berada di barisan ini.


Bahkan segelintir member di sini pun memiliki sikap serupa !



Jadi kalau Anda menganggap sikap seperti yang berwarna biru itu sebagai bagian dari sekularisme, maka tindakan yang seharusnya Anda lakukan adalah membenahi forum ini terlebih dahulu.

Daripada teriak2 mengenai Eropa, padahal ternyata tidak ada warga Eropa di sini sehingga tidak mampu menanggapi teriakan Anda tersebut, bukankah lebih baik Anda memberi pengertian/pengajaran kepada member2 yang mendukung sikap sekularisme tersebut.



Siapakah member2 tersebut ? Silahkan Anda cermati sendiri dari setiap diskusi politik yang ada di forum Ekaristi ini.
_________________
"Um unser Russland zu retten, ... [w]ir bräuchten zehn Franziskus von Assisi." - Lenin, am Ende seines Leben, 1924.
"[T]o save our Russia, ... [w]e would need ten Francis of Assisi." - Lenin's last word, 1924.


Last edited by paul7475 on Mon, 30-11-2009 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony
Evangelos


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 4581
Location: Disini, ngga kelihatan apa?

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agama, politik dsb ... semua sama menyandarkan diri kepada ABSOLUTES. Dimana ada yg berhasil memisahkan politik dan agama, please enlighten me. Contoh satu negara saja? Cina? hahaha ... nope! hm ... Vatikan? Nope um .... planet uranus kali get it?

B+

It's global war againts immorallity that includes all. Jadi bukan eropa atau membership harap mengerti.
_________________
Salam dan doa
F A Q
It fails to show just how the world is divided. Evil stands for division against unity. In union with God and His miracles I see my self everyday in the mirror. I am a miracle that science still is at it's heels glancing up a vast yet unacceptable impossibility, a climb to faith. Science can't and will never explain God, for science is only capable in calculating the calculable. How is science to measure anything outside of time and space that started time and space, how is the created to measure the creator? Science is an apathy of one who seeks his heart and yet refuse to see it,
Tony B Mat 12:32 Jangan membohongi diri!
Indonesia Katolik -Terjemahan Baru   © Ekaristi dot Org
Matius  12:32Apabila seorang mengucapkan sesuatu menentang Anak Manusia, ia akan diampuni, tetapi jika ia menentang Roh Kudus, ia tidak akan diampuni, di dunia ini tidak, dan di dunia yang akan datangpun tidak.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
paul7475
== BANNED ==




Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 1578

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony wrote:
aku wrote:
Jadi pertanyaannya: adakah yang salah dengan kebebasan beragama ?

Bukan itu yg didiskusikan, melainkan sekulrisme dan liberalisme, please try to pu ti your head inilan musuh gereja, relativisme, individualisme, liberalis dan sekulerlisme anti moral.

Aku tahu yang Anda maksudkan.

Bukankah aku juga telah bilang, kalau di Eropa, musuh gereja adalah modernisme dan sekularisme ?!

Bahkan relativisme yang berkembang di Eropa pun telah disentil oleh Bapa Suci saat misa perdana sebagai Paus ?!


Hanya kutipan Anda mengenai Islam, dan juga mengatakan "boneka Islam", seakan mau berbicara mengenai kebebasan beragama. Terlebih kata2 Anda sendiri "Satu lagi berita dan bukti akan kelemahan dan kembalinya EU dari liberalisme dan sosialisme kini menjadi otoriter kepada kebebasan beragama."

Mungkin aku yang salah tangkap... Confused


Tony wrote:
aku wrote:
Bapa Suci pernah meminta kepada para pemimpin dunia Arab untuk memberi perlindungan kepada kaum kristiani di negaranya masing2. Termasuk mendirikan gereja...

Hahahahaha ..... dream on. Membawa Kitab Suci diluar kompleks asing di saudi saja akan ditangkap polisi agama dan dihukum, get real dude!

Aku tidak sedang bermimpi, Tony. Mimpi bahwa Bapa Suci mengatakan hal itu.

Aku hanya teringat bahwa Bapa Suci pernah meminta hal itu.

Nanti kalau sempat, aku cari lagi berita mengenai hal itu. Dan kalau dapat, tentu aku kirim ke sini.
_________________
"Um unser Russland zu retten, ... [w]ir bräuchten zehn Franziskus von Assisi." - Lenin, am Ende seines Leben, 1924.
"[T]o save our Russia, ... [w]e would need ten Francis of Assisi." - Lenin's last word, 1924.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tony
Evangelos


Joined: 20 Jan 2004
Posts: 4581
Location: Disini, ngga kelihatan apa?

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kamu betul2 perlahan deh, bermimpi ARAB akan pernah mau kompromi dan bukan Paus YP II atau Benediktus XVI punya pidato, duh ...... pelan sekali prossesingnya Embarassed cpu 16 mhz 640 kb ram/ commodore 3
_________________
Salam dan doa
F A Q
It fails to show just how the world is divided. Evil stands for division against unity. In union with God and His miracles I see my self everyday in the mirror. I am a miracle that science still is at it's heels glancing up a vast yet unacceptable impossibility, a climb to faith. Science can't and will never explain God, for science is only capable in calculating the calculable. How is science to measure anything outside of time and space that started time and space, how is the created to measure the creator? Science is an apathy of one who seeks his heart and yet refuse to see it,
Tony B Mat 12:32 Jangan membohongi diri!
Indonesia Katolik -Terjemahan Baru   © Ekaristi dot Org
Matius  12:32Apabila seorang mengucapkan sesuatu menentang Anak Manusia, ia akan diampuni, tetapi jika ia menentang Roh Kudus, ia tidak akan diampuni, di dunia ini tidak, dan di dunia yang akan datangpun tidak.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
paul7475
== BANNED ==




Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 1578

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony wrote:
Dimana ada yg berhasil memisahkan politik dan agama, please enlighten me.

Aku tidak menekankan pada berhasil tidaknya. Aku lebih mementingkan proses/usaha.

Bahwa ada orang2 yang berusaha memisahkan politik dan agama, bukankah itu benar adanya ?

Bukankah istilah Anda "global war againts immorallity" mengacu kepada usaha orang2 tersebut ?

Ataukah kita harus menunggu bersikap sampai usaha itu telah membuahkan keberhasilan ?!


Tony wrote:
Vatikan? Nope um ....

Katolik tidak pernah mengajarkan pemisahan politik dan agama. Bahkan mengecamnya.

Maka Vatikan sebagai pusat kekatolikan, tentu tidak akan melakukan pemisahan tersebut.


Tony wrote:
It's global war againts immorallity that includes all. Jadi bukan eropa atau membership harap mengerti.

Perang global melawan immorallity. Itu aku setuju.

Namun tentu ada target perlawanan. Antara lain pribadi2 yang bersikap mendukung pemisahan ajaran Gereja dan kehidupan politik praktis, sehingga seringkali berujung kepada keputusan2 politik yang dibuatnya bertentangan dengan moral Katolik.

Bukankah begitu, Tony ?!
_________________
"Um unser Russland zu retten, ... [w]ir bräuchten zehn Franziskus von Assisi." - Lenin, am Ende seines Leben, 1924.
"[T]o save our Russia, ... [w]e would need ten Francis of Assisi." - Lenin's last word, 1924.


Last edited by paul7475 on Mon, 30-11-2009 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
paul7475
== BANNED ==




Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Posts: 1578

PostPosted: Mon, 30-11-2009 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tonya wrote:
Kamu betul2 perlahan deh, bermimpi ARAB akan pernah mau kompromi dan bukan Paus YP II atau Benediktus XVI punya pidato, duh ...... pelan sekali prossesingnya cpu 16 mhz 640 kb ram/ commodore 3

Apakah sebuah permintaan itu = mimpi bahwa ARAB mau kompromi ?

Tapi sabarlah, aku akan coba cari2 lagi arsip berita itu. Semoga ada di internet.

Sedikit OOT. Apakah ajakan untuk berdoa bersama atau berdialog mengenai masalah agama, yang diprakarsai oleh kapausan, beberapa tahun silam, pada awalnya juga sebuah mimpi bahwa ARAB mau menerima ajakan tersebut ?


Mungkin benar itu sebuah mimpi. Tepatnya mimpi indah yang disertai doa agar Tuhan mau turut campur dalam perwujudannya.

Anda juga mau turut serta, Tony ?
_________________
"Um unser Russland zu retten, ... [w]ir bräuchten zehn Franziskus von Assisi." - Lenin, am Ende seines Leben, 1924.
"[T]o save our Russia, ... [w]e would need ten Francis of Assisi." - Lenin's last word, 1924.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    printer-friendly view    Akademi Kontra Indiferentisme Forum Index -> Forum Terbuka All times are GMT + 6 Hours
Goto page: Next
Page 1 of 8

Log in
Username: Password: Log me on automatically each visit

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


© Copyright Ekaristi Dot Org 2001 Running on phpBB really fast 2001, 2002 phpBB Group. Keluaran (Exodus) 20:1-17